Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

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Opie Macleod
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Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13135Post Opie Macleod
Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:33 pm

So I recognize the importance of mentoring and the value of the traditional training style of the Jedi. Master-Padawan is often the most sought after style of training. And for good reason. It definitely allows for an intimate progression as a Jedi. It develops a bound not only to the people, but to the Path as well. There is a lot to be said for it (which I'll leave out as this will get long enough).

Unfortunately Jedi Living is not designed for it. And this was originally done on purpose. And this is my apology and reasoning as to why this is. As well as how I am looking to address it (I eventually get there, long rambling post first) and what your thoughts are on my solutions.

Originally Master-Apprentice was the only form of training in the Jedi Community. Jedi Masters were given complete oversight and autonomy over their students and their advancement. If your Jedi Master said you were a Jedi Knight, you were a Jedi Knight. Done deal. Certain problems developed out of this and one that still persists to this day unfortunately. The major problem that developed was Cronyism (which again, is still an issue in the greater Jedi Community).

From 1996-2000 there was three reasons you were going to get Knighted by your Jedi Masters.
1.) The Master got bored, busy with life, or just ran out of things to sound wise about. So, poof! "I have nothing more I can teach you. You are a Jedi Knight." This often took about two months in the early days.
2.) You became friends. Genuinely developed a friendship. This would fast track you pretty quickly. About three months.
3.) You gave full blinding support to your "Master." They were always right. You backed them in any argument. You defended them against any naysayers. You listened and did as you were told without question. Blind Loyalty. This was the longest, because both student and teacher relished the exchange. Might be a whole six months before you got Knighthood. Unless a vote was upcoming and the Master needed support - then you could get promoted quicker so they could get the Knight backing they needed. Or promote you to the "Council" as well.

Cronyism - the appointment of friends and associates to positions of authority, without proper regard to their qualifications. This is what made up most Jedi Councils of websites. And tends to still do even to this day. If you want to get into a position of authority at a Jedi Website - it is like getting ahead in Corporate America. You find the right people to butter up. You support them as the movers-and-shakers. Use flowery words. Have more patience as these days it will take you about a year rather than three months (except at the Force Academy, then it is just dependent upon whatever political game is being played which could be a much shorter timeframe).  Eventually you'll get your offer to join.

Now I am sure you noticed two things. The first being - "Opie, you didn't include the fourth reason for getting Knighthood. Earning it." There was no earning it in the 1990's. There wasn't enough experience actually living as Jedi to discern that. We didn't have enough actual materials to really say, especially online, whether or not someone was in fact a Jedi Knight. In fact I personally would say we didn't have any right to grant any titles outside Student, Advanced Student until at least 2006. By 2006 we had a lot of good unique material. We had plenty of people with years of experience living as Jedi in everyday life. We had a boatload of failures which offered core lessons. And even had some successes to help us build upon. So to me, no one could have earned Knighthood before 2006. Been a Jedi? Absolutely, but not a Jedi Knight - let alone a Jedi Master.

The second thing you probably noticed is the down tone thus far. It is all good to vent and complain, but focusing on the problem rather than the solution tends to lead to negative thinking. This highlights the problem, but we have seen nothing of a solution. Just me pointing out the erroneous behavior (which I was not immune to) of the beginning approach to Jedi Training back in the day. By 2000 standards, accountability, and most importantly meritocracy were my banner flags as I went to war with the Community (a bit hypocritically as I was far from a polished Jedi and nowhere near a Jedi Knight).

So is why I all but dissolved Apprenticeships. I had a very clear system/standard for one to become a Jedi Knight and be allowed to teach an Apprentice. You had to pass ALL the Tier Programs at the Jedi Academy Online (or as we call it now, Jedi Living). When this wasn't enough of a challenge I put in an Age Requirement. Then a requirement of a certain amount of (verifiable) time living as a Jedi. Then in-person tests were required, including meeting the Administration of the website for an in-person interview. As well as a background check and three personal references. This effectively meant myself and my in-person Padawan at the time were the only ones allowed to the Jedi Knight title and Apprenticeships.

And when my in-person Apprentice (whom I did Knight) chose to leave the Jedi and follow the Sith - well that sort of threw my little Requirements out the window right? -I mean not really, I simply hadn't followed them fully and had allowed my ego to get in the way of honest judgment.- So Apprenticeships were removed completely from Jedi Living. If I couldn't trust myself with honest evaluation how could I trust some online Jedi to do so? -As if my failures were everyone's failures. Silly Jedi.-

So years later. Jedi Living has been revamped and updated more times than I can count. And not just because I can't count high. It had actually been a lot. Still we don't have a clear Apprenticeship Program in place. And I don't train one-on-one anymore. So we can't even do the whole, student at a time thing. So - solutions....

Here is what I was thinking of instituting and you can give your thoughts, opinions, and/or offer your own solutions.
Solution One: Tier Mentorship. If you graduate a Tier you are allowed to Mentor a Jedi who begins and is in that Tier. This is done with an understanding (for both parties) that you are not a Knight. That big challenges, problems, and concerns should be discussed with more senior members (Jedi Sirius, Jedi Sammy, etc.). But you can offer advice, guidance, and private support in relation to beginning the Tier Training Program. Jedi of the First Level can Mentor Tier One Students. Jedi of the Second Level can Mentor Tier One and Tier Two students. Jedi of the Third Level can mentor First, Second, and Third Tier students.
No Apprenticeship (as no Jedi Knight title). But if you plan it out properly you could be a mentor through one student's entire Tier Training.

Solution Two: Apprenticeships and the Jedi Knight title given based on the following requirements:
Minimum Age: 22 Years Old.
Minimum Experience: 2 Years as a Jedi (must be verifiable - no, I have been a Jedi for twenty years away from the Community).
Minimum Training: Jedi of the Third Level within the Jedi Living Tiered Program.
Passes an online Test (I have a couple we could use).
Attends One Jedi Gathering (California Jedi is the most recommended, but can be an annual gathering) and meets/has interview an Approved Jedi (this just means a Jedi who's judgment and opinion I trust). I'll also accept a one-on-one meet-up with myself.

Solution Three: Using Both Previous Solutions.

Solution Four: Developing an online Jedi Equivalency Exam. Allowing Jedi Knights from any established Jedi Group to take it. If they pass they may teach and take on an Apprentice here at Jedi Living. I'll be honest I dislike this idea the most (for a few reasons). But it would resolve the mentor to student ratio very quickly and probably add activity to the forums.

So - I don't care if you have been here for the full nine years Jedi Living has existed (in one form or another) or you have been here a total of nine seconds. What are your thoughts and/or solutions?
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13136Post Emma
Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:18 pm

This was really interesting to read, and thank you for being honest Jedi Macleod about what's gone on previously. I'm taking you at your word that it doesn't matter how long I've been here, so...

I'm not sure there is going to be an ideal solution, but I would want to stay well clear of option four. That's not to say that there aren't lovely people out there (I'm sure there are), but the safeguards in place for solution two make it feel a lot safer. As such, would it be possible to have a mixture of apprenticeships and mentoring, with mentors also screened for suitability in some way (albeit to a lesser extent)?

And I get that people often want mentors, and it's great, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't say they were necessary, especially on a forum like this where people seem happy to discuss things. Also, having mentored people in the past it can be a massive undertaking, even when everything works out well, so I can see why many people would be reluctant, especially online where people come and go. Maybe it's also worth having a basic minimum standard before people can be offered an apprenticeship, both to prove that they are serious and ensure that they have a good understanding of what being a Jedi actually entails?

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13138Post Walleras
Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:20 pm

Thanks for the comments, I did wonder why y'all didn't have masters and apprentices.

A few questions: Are we voting on which method to use? Or is this a discussion of these ideas? Would there be a rank under Apprentice for people under 22 to learn? Also, will Jedi living be getting a council? Or do y'all already have one...

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13139Post Opie Macleod
Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:27 pm

[quote="Emma"]I'm taking you at your word that it doesn't matter how long I've been here[/quote]
Fair since you are taking me at my word that I am a Jedi. Word is all we have here. So best to make it count and mean something.  :yeah:

[quote="Emma"]would it be possible to have a mixture of apprenticeships and mentoring, with mentors also screened for suitability in some way (albeit to a lesser extent)?[/quote]
Easy answer: Yes. The longer more complex answer as to how exactly: That would outline the clear difference. We would have added stipulations to mentorship. Most likely including another (non-tier) training program.

[quote="Emma"]Maybe it's also worth having a basic minimum standard before people can be offered an apprenticeship, both to prove that they are serious and ensure that they have a good understanding of what being a Jedi actually entails? [/quote]
Absolutely. Our old standard for this was completion of Tier Two (that was a different system), we'd probably make it completion of Tier One. Much like the fiction, how many sites work these days, and my own original ideas where you get basic understanding first. Having an Academy first style allows for students to not only show their commitment, but also show themselves. This helps in finding a more suitable Mentor/Knight. So that would probably be the system we would use for that.

Thank you Jedi Emma for your questions and input. Very good thoughts.

[quote="Walleras"]Are we voting on which method to use? Or is this a discussion of these ideas?[/quote]
No, not voting. This is a gathering of ideas, opinions, and exploration of possible solutions. After a random amount of time based mostly off my whims... I mean Jedi intuition, I will implement one of the presented, expressed, discussed, and/or mentioned solutions from this thread. If there is an overwhelming preference for a particular option that obviously will be taken into consideration. Of course, like all things Jedi, merit wins the day. So the view/option which presents the most reasoned and beneficial solution (for all Jedi Students here at JL) will win even if it is not widely endorsed.

[quote="Walleras"]Would there be a rank under Apprentice for people under 22 to learn?[/quote]
Anyone can learn under the age of 22. Twenty-Two is the minimum age requirement for Knighthood. If that standard was used Rank for someone who is not 22, but completed all other requirements would simply be a Jedi of the Third Level (as the training tiers stand now).

[quote="Walleras"]Also, will Jedi living be getting a council? Or do y'all already have one...[/quote]
No and no. The administration team may grow as needed (which it barely needs me at the moment let alone more than that). But Council implies governing and management beyond what is necessary for an online website. Plus I personally find the term pretentious and self-aggrandizing. I'll avoid the rest of my thoughts on Councils and the Jedi as it turns into a rant of actually living the path and blah blah blah.

Thank you Jedi Walleras for your questions.
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13145Post e_nder doTahno
Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:58 am

I very much like the idea of taking elements of solution 1 and solution 2 and putting them together. It seems like the best way to help those that really want the connection without granting any exploitable titles or the like.

Just from what I have experienced, I would agree with Jedi Emma about the mentors not necessarily being required. I haven't participated here in a lot outside of my journal yet, but a lot of what I've read in here has had a lot of community feedback. That seems to meet the mentoring need without all the "extra" strings to me.
Don't get me wrong, I am very pro Traditional Training, but I have seen plenty of bantha poodoo come from it as well. :0
I've also seen the Dark Side you speak of (cronyism) first hand. It can be a fast track to discrimination amongst your own friends and cohorts. Not a fan. I was never lucky enough to participate in any of the in-person stuff (age req, parents), so my view is definitely limited.

I would definitely like to see where this goes and what kinds of ideas come out of the woodworks.

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13164Post Nova Starfire
Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:41 am

I personally like solution two. It seems to have the most safeguards in place to keep people from getting a title they did not earn. I also am a fan of the age requirement, because it forces someone to be patient in waiting for Knighthood. If you don't have the mental fortitude to wait until you are a certain age, then you probably aren't cut out to be a Knight in the first place.
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13165Post ElwinGrey
Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:17 am

There is a reason it's difficult to become a Jedi Knight. It takes years of work and dedication, so from the standpoint of a Jedi hierarchy that would make sense if this site had more active membership, I feel that would be the best.

However, solution one is practical, and this would probably benefit from people interacting with each other in such a way. If people actually want that bond in this community, I believe solution three is the most practical solution.

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13179Post Opie Macleod
Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:54 pm

Thank you everyone for the input thus far. I appreciate your thoughts and will keep you updated as we look to implement any changes.  :bow:
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13221Post Amyntas
Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:23 pm

I have only been here for a few days but i favour solution 2 , it sounds the best thought through one and i like the age restriction , i find 22 even very young , but thats just me. Its the solution that reflects effort and experience at the same time. I am very curious tho why solution 4 is not a favorite of yours? Could you expand on that?  :thumbsup:
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13223Post Opie Macleod
Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:38 am

I am very curious tho why solution 4 is not a favorite of yours? Could you expand on that?
So I wrote out this whole logical argument for why Jedi Living produces better students. And because of that most outside Jedi Mentors find themselves overloaded or embarrassed when taking on a student as an Apprentice from here. As such most students find themselves abandoned or graduated very quickly. Leaving them with an unsatisfied feeling. And thus my displeasure for allowing outside Knights to mentor students here (which as a side note - feel free to verify my claims with long term students who started here and their experiences when they branched out).

However - that whole long argument (as in official argument - logical reasons presented to prove a specific point) doesn't really address what I think the true issue is. And I believe it is this simple:

When faced with a no non-sense, no excuses, full accountability, and lots of work on a set schedule approach versus a much more relaxed, go at your own pace, Knighthood a basic guarantee approach - the people who chose the former will not do well under the tutelage of those that chose the latter. It becomes a one-sided exchange.

I have nothing but respect and enjoyment for each student that has given their time here. It is not easy. It is hard. I do not make it easy to come back - day in and day out. It gets boring and tedious and I am not always nice and cuddly. Because of this - those that stick around are people which are very serious about living and applying the Jedi Lifestyle.

So while I had written that whole argument on why Jedi Living offered a different approach that doesn't vibe well with the rest of the Jedi Community. The truth is that - the people who stick around here are just awesome people who value Jedi Experience over Jedi Titles. They love living the Path and don't want to waste their time on popularity contests and earning superfluous titles which seem to only really serve the ego. And as such have a hard time finding a good mentor from the broader community.

Thus - I don't see a whole lot of value in option 4 and thus dislike it the most. :3
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13226Post Amyntas
Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:34 pm

That makes complete sense to me , being a Jedi should not be about the titles anyhow , it should be about being a Jedi , about doing the right thing.  :bluesaber: its nice to study all these nice things about Jediism , where it came from and where it is heading , and to gain better knowledge about oneself and the motives for being who you are and why you want to be a Jedi. But in the end its all about living like a Jedi...
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13228Post Opie Macleod
Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:50 pm

[quote="Marta Lina"]But in the end its all about living like a Jedi...[/quote]
So very true.  :bow:
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13545Post JT
Sat May 28, 2016 12:32 pm

Interesting topic. No easy solution and never been particularly focused on the attainment of rank. Seeking and accumulating knowledge and gaining experience is what draws me to Jedi philosophy. I could find a path in any number of religions and traditions but why put a label on yourself?

"And when my in-person Apprentice (whom I did Knight) chose to leave the Jedi and follow the Sith - well that sort of threw my little Requirements out the window right?"

I thought you were kidding there until I googled it and sure enough there are online Sith academies. Takes all types I guess!
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13563Post Kaishin Valentin
Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:35 pm

Honestly what is the need for Knighthoods?  I am not a history buff, but isn't Knighthood primarily a military rank? what is gained from knighthood?  What is required of a Knight? 

Apprenticeship definitely has a lot of value, but i feel a Jedi Apprentice is a little to undefined.  What aspects of Jedi life is the apprenticeship for?

now even with the questioning, i think solution 1 is best.  Its never really bad to have more people to bring questions too.  So having a list or some practical tool to point us toward people that might have the correct answer, is wonderful.
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13564Post JediBhalu
Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:49 pm

I have seen few examples of apprenticeships working out. Either the mentor leaves or the student leaves or somebody gives up.

Now, if they are physically in the same city or neighborhood, that would be different. Chicago Jedi's apprentices have a much lower quit rate. That's because they physically make it a part of their lives. If in person apprenticeships were to be considered, then I'd go with solution 3, giving people the option to train with Tier mentorship and/or a physical mentor/training master.

I am just wary of online relationships. They tend to get weird, personal, and not in the way you want to get weird and personal. Sometimes the master ends up knowing too much personal information, and if you have never truly met a master... Do you really know what kind of person they are? I think it would be safer, again, with option 3.

I am not in favor of 4 so much. There are other websites to be a Knight of... so, if you trained there, go be a knight there. If you, like I have done, shed all your Jedi titles to come to a different site, then you humble yourself and work your way up. If you have been a Jedi for a long time, the assignments should just be a fresh reminder to continue training.

Those're my thoughts.

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13609Post Iain McKinnon-Waddell
Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:52 pm

So I thought I'd chip in my two pence here.

I like solution 1 as someone who is currently in tier two training. I feel that being able to mentor someone or give them some pointers as they proceed through tier two would only enhance my own training and allow me to live as a Jedi a bit better putting what I've learned and am still learning into practice!

Solution 2... in principle yes I agree and there is some benefit to having standardised requirements particularly if you look into education literature. However the same literature also holds cautions of how each of us is individual and while some people will meet these requirements on paper and pass with flying colours once in the "scheme" they may not actually be particularly well suited. Conversely a 19 year old living as a Jedi for 6 months with a mature and committed attitude and sound education/life experience may turn out to be a fabulous mentor. Either way, yup I think there needs to be standards and I think your own experience Jedi Opie Macleod has probably had you think that you would take these with a pinch of salt and run with what you or those trusted others think of the person more than anything.

Solution 3: Yup, I think students can often make very empathic and enthusiastic teachers of those "junior" or less experienced to them whilst experienced mentors may also be useful to refer to for more advanced students or those that have more complex questions/issues/problems. So I like this system of... I dunno making best use of resources of all levels almost.

Solution 4: Again, your past experiences as you'd described them probably has bearing on this option. My points from solution 2 stand when looking at standardised testing but also I feel this lacks the personal 'vetting' procedure of a trusted member of the group? Perhaps I'm getting paranoid and cynical in my old age?

Anyway, dunno if that helps much but thought I'd give my opinion. :bow:

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13728Post WRRPhoto
Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:00 am

I like option 3, although maybe tweak a few things.

I'd like to see mentors, as I feel they could be of great help on this path (provided they commit to being a mentor) but it may be better to allow people to mentor Tier they have completed, vs. the ones they are working on. I can see scenarios where the mentee surpasses the mentor, and then the value is lost.

As for the requirements, I do feel some sort of minimum standard is a good idea in order to prevent nepotism, etc. That said, I would have to think these over a bit more to see if I would like to see any changes.

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 13740Post Opie Macleod
Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:33 pm

Just to be clear. I do read all replies here and consider the opinions, thoughts, and ideas put forward. So while I may not reply to everything - I am reading it and considering how it would work within our current structure and any changes I might look to make.
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 14650Post Alpheus
Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:29 pm

  • Okay, so this topic is six months old. I'm not sure if its reached a resolution. Today is my third day in this community and I understand ALL people were encouraged to contribute.
    I have to say, I AM a little invested in the idea of being mentored, becoming an apprentice, or even - one day - becoming a mentor myself.
    So I feel I should put that down because I want anyone who reads this to know my get-go position: I'd love to see this happen.
    Obviously, as everyone has so aptly demonstrated, its about the safeguards and quality of the relationship.

    How does one make sure a mentor/student relationship doesn't become predatory or grandiose?
    How would people improve retention of apprentices?
    TLDR below, i'm about to tell a story:
    • I'm coming from a place of my own experience - in regards to my martial arts training. I've trained in karate since I was eight years old (making it now 16 years)
      and trained in a variety of systems for short periods of time. I began Muay Thai early 2016 and have enjoyed a full year of training in that now.

    • I became an instructor when I was around 19 by volunteering for the dojo for 40 hours. The first lessons were simple: "Helpers smile, A LOT" (service and friendliness) "This is a fiefdom, not a democracy" (Leadership have the final say, defer to those more experienced) and "Even the king cleans the latrines" (No-one is above hard work. Quite literally, sensei would be the one to clean the toilets, because a leader doesn't expect anyone to do something he doesn't do himself.)
    • I was admitted after the 40 hours as a trainee, but quickly became an 'assistant'. I later received my "instructor" patch and belt to distinguish me, earning my full instructor role. (mostly for the kids, who are very visual)
    • I've enjoyed a few more years of being an instructor and learning about leadership and the mentoring role. One of my most stand-out experiences was exactly the day I learned that I wanted to be an instructor for life. To cut what could be a huge story short, I got to the dojo and it was flooding, and called sensei. he said he'd get on the roof, and in my panic, I set up the collapsible ladder the wrong way. It collapsed as he climbed it, and thankfully, he grabbed hold of the roof, and then swung down safely. I was so upset with myself and he shrugged it off, and said "its fine. The master always has to check the apprentice's work. I didn't do that this time, so its my own fault. No harm, no foul."


    Now at that point I realised in many ways - he WAS the master, and I WAS his apprentice. Sure, I disagreed with him in many ways - in terms of his views on politics, race, religion, many things. However he was a product of his time, and had invaluable life experience compared to me - bilingual, ex-military, two marriages, fatherhood, worldly travel, two degrees and many careers.

    Since then I have viewed his mentorship that way - almost picturing him as Obi-wan, and myself as Anakin. (That story runs deeper but not relevant here).

    Recently, a teenage student who has been somewhat enamoured to me has been volunteering themselves to help in every class possible, showing up the minute they get out of school just to help me run the classes. And they're constantly asking questions - not just about the instructing but other things. They write, they have high school crushes, they have struggles with friends and parents.

    I've realised I am now a mentor to this person on a one-on-one basis too.


    TLDR; I've recounted this big rant about how I've been mentored in my martial arts journey by my sensei and boss, and how i've recently been put in a position similar to him where I'm mentoring.

    In my dojo, a probationary black belt is issued after brown belt, and once the black belt becomes a first degree black belt, they are assigned a 'buddy' (a brown belt about to attempt their own probationary black belt) - and they help them construct their written assessment, as well as help them with fitness training ideas outside the dojo. It's encouraged that they develop somewhat of a social bond.

    We've encountered similar problems: on either end of the relationship, they are afraid of saying when their "buddy" has failed in some way or needs improvement.

    I do believe that option 1 AND 2 would be best. Tiers of one level are able to mentor lower levels. and that Knighthood should bring on an apprentice.

    There are some ways that we have improved/solved the problems Jedi Opie Macleod has addressed. They are:

    1. Quality control. To be a "buddy", a stringent process of interviewing and testing is done to 'match' pairs up. Full black belts are not awarded to anyone we will not trust to mentor their "buddy"
    2. Accountability: People leave, people move on. It takes 400 students for us to produce one probationary black belt, and even fewer get their first degree. Since utilising the buddy program however, we've noticed that people are held accountable for staying and continuing to train, because their development and another's are hinging on each other.
    3. Regular consultation on both ends with the chief instructor/sensei. Mentors are frequently asked to be as candid as possible about how the other is going. Some are very honest, some are.. not. Students are frequently asked to be as candid as possible about how their mentoring is going as well.

    I hope this provokes SOME thought, I feel the parallel is relevant. It could be this reached a resolution ages ago and I'm just waffling. If so, I'm sorry. lol

    :greensaber:
Last edited by Alpheus on Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sammy
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 14709Post Sammy
Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:11 pm

My Two Cents: Solution number 2.

It is hard for us to do it here-right now.

I like to think that over time, when we have more who are experienced and willing to teach, it would be a good thing to implement as an option.

I love the prerequisites of the option and think they are fair to everyone wanting to undergo an apprenticeship, it weeds out who is truly committed, and allows natural mentor-student relationships to flourish.

It has to be done safely, obviously. I think tests as well as check ups would be for the best.

In my own experience I have found it to be a very useful tool, it just has to be aligned properly. It takes a lot of time to know what you are looking for as a student or as a mentor for that matter. It takes time to show your serious commitment to the Path through your work, and studies. You also have to be the right student, or the right mentor, to work with someone.
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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 14719Post ElwinGrey
Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:28 pm

Now that I've been a Jedi for a year, I agree with some of the insights in the above two posts. I think it should be a combination of one and two -- Mentoring a younger Jedi Student would help Jedi of the First Level and Second Level cement their own learning. In my personal experience, teaching is one of the best methods of being taught. I've always learned just as much as a master as I have as a student.

That being said, I do also think that Jedi Knights should be allowed to take and mentor apprentices if they so wish and are sufficiently experienced.

Odd to think that in a few years or so I myself might qualify. If I've been on this path already for one year, and am breaching my second, I see no reason not to continue when I've seen such positive results within myself.

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 15437Post harasti
Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:06 am

Having just started the tier 1 lessons, I am still new to the Jedi living. However, I like all the solutions. I think that once you pass the first tier and go into the second, part of your lesson plan for the second tier is to mentor a first tier student. This wouldn't be a Padawan/master type relationship, more of a helping hand or friend, to get to know some of our brothers and sisters. This is also a good lesson for patience and objectivity on the mentor. I also believe that you should be a certain age and have a certain amount of time under your belt. Me being 40 years old, I do not want an 18 year old master. Someone who has at least two years of living as a Jedi is someone I can trust, but the worldly problems of a 40 year old and a teenager are going to be different. This Jedi should also have at least the third tier under his or her belt in order to teach others.
The online test or equivalence exam are great ideas, because this measures the Jedi's progress. I believe this could be considered the "Trials" a Jedi must go through to gain the rank of knight.
I believe we should have an apprenticeship program. I would like to see it, as I would benefit from it and the learning from others in a one on one type setting. I do not know how you would go about a meeting or interview as some of us live far away. I for one live in Wisconsin and do not have a video camera on my computer to skype or anything like that. I see why it would be ideal. you could judge a person on their character more precisely in person, but it would be hard. maybe having another Jedi knight or master in the area conduct the interview, or would it just be simpler to make everyone get a video cam and skype an interview. Guess I better learn how to do that.. Hold on, here is an idea, we all have video on our phones, duh. I can do that, unless I am required to purchase hardware/software to video chat. I see it both ways. It is a commitment to get the required equipment and also forcing us to buy and use something we are unfamiliar with.
In short, I would love to see an apprenticeship program, I would love to be able to find a master to learn from, Maybe have it set up that the knights or masters randomly pick an apprentice. I feel all of the solutions are beneficial to the program and to its members on both sides.
What ever you choose, as long as we get the apprenticeship program back. 

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 18123Post Lykeios
Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:48 pm

I really like the idea of students mentoring students. This is a great way for both parties to learn and solidify their knowledge/wisdom. Most people learn best by teaching (or mentoring on) something they have already learned. That's how it works for me.

The second idea is good too so I'm inclined to agree with doing a combination platter of the first two.

However, I don't really care about the "knight" title anymore. I think it is ambiguous and almost meaningless in the Jedi community as it is now.

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 18127Post Amyntas
Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:47 pm

Lykeios wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:48 pm
I really like the idea of students mentoring students. This is a great way for both parties to learn and solidify their knowledge/wisdom. Most people learn best by teaching (or mentoring on) something they have already learned. That's how it works for me.

The second idea is good too so I'm inclined to agree with doing a combination platter of the first two.

However, I don't really care about the "knight" title anymore. I think it is ambiguous and almost meaningless in the Jedi community as it is now.

WORD !! :greensaber: lets live like Jedi and be examples for others before being arsed about rank and titles , if we ever should be , we should be Jedi because there is no profit in being one , when you are of service than that is your gain in my opinion

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 18456Post ZenMondo
Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:10 am

My view on this topic has always been clear to those that know me, but as I am sure not many here know me, it can best be summarized with "Live in your own Temple, be your own Master."

Even when we have a mentor, our training and our progression on the path are our own responsibility. That being said, there is a good value in a community, and using the resource of those that are on the path with you. Be they mentors or peers, or even those new to the path. Everyone has something they can teach you. It was a novice that gave me a great insight into the Jedi code that I had never considered before. Wisdom comes from all corners.

Mentorship can be a valuable resource, but we must not lose sight as to who is responsible for our training, it is we, ourselves.

Apologies to necro-post. As an explanation, I recently reached a milestone in my training, and am looking for new directions and training opportunities.

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Re: Apprenticeship and Knighthoods

Post: # 18458Post Opie Macleod
Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:07 pm

Apologies to necro-post.
We don't have any rules or anything against that. In fact all the boards are open. If a topic interests a person people are more than welcome to add their two cents. More matter how old a topic.
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